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Feb 3, 2013
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i know chuck hagel. i think he has good experience in regards to public service. he understands the issues of the defense department. i think he will be a great secretary of defense. >> chuck hagel faced tough questioning during his senate confirmation hearing last week. they could vote on the nomination as early as thursday. >> it's been a busy weekend for secretary of state john kerry. he was only sworn in on friday and he has always assured israelly leaders that they will continue to the partnership. kerry also managed to find time to have lunch with the secretary of state under president reagan. >> very busy. there are flurries falling through the skies. >> can we expect more of the same ton >> how is the weather shaping on this super bowl sunday? >> light snow out there right now. as we move into early tomorrow morning it won't cause any problems. the skies are clearing out and the showers we had are quickly lifting off to the north and the east. it is 34 degrees at reagan national airport. the wind
i know chuck hagel. i think he has good experience in regards to public service. he understands the issues of the defense department. i think he will be a great secretary of defense. >> chuck hagel faced tough questioning during his senate confirmation hearing last week. they could vote on the nomination as early as thursday. >> it's been a busy weekend for secretary of state john kerry. he was only sworn in on friday and he has always assured israelly leaders that they will...
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Feb 14, 2013
02/13
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it's not just about chuck hagel. trying to get answers on benghazi means there is a different faction of republicans who are holding this up. they've also said they will do this regarding john brennan who would be the choice to lead the cia. he would be much more directly involved in the benghazi matter, but this is a way to try to pressure the administration to provide information that congress believes it has a right to have. now, the white house could certainly argue that what the president was doing or what time he went to bed, those sorts of questions, are sort of under an executive privilege. they don't have to tell them about that. it does have a political question. how engaged was the president once he was notified at 5:00 p.m. by secretary panetta that there was an unfolding assault happening in benghazi. those are things that came out through recent testimony through panetta, and the joint chiefs chair that had he had not spoken to the president again after initially informing hem. that created a new sort o
it's not just about chuck hagel. trying to get answers on benghazi means there is a different faction of republicans who are holding this up. they've also said they will do this regarding john brennan who would be the choice to lead the cia. he would be much more directly involved in the benghazi matter, but this is a way to try to pressure the administration to provide information that congress believes it has a right to have. now, the white house could certainly argue that what the president...
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Feb 9, 2013
02/13
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chuck hagel is not that guy. >> hang on with me. we got much more to do. >>> four brave americans, here's where we're going. fouf four brave americans killed in benghazi. but incredibly, yesterday's senate intelligence committee hearings revealed for the first time that president obama as awol. hillary clinton also awol during that horrible benghazi night. and the secretary of defense, he apparently did nothing. his hands were tied. even the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, he apparently did nothing. his hands were tied. i don't know the story. the stuff that leaked out from panetta's testimony yesterday was incredible. we will talk about it after this short break. i'm lorenzo. i work for 47 different companies. well, technically i work for one. that company, the united states postal service®, works for thousands of home businesses. because at usps.com®, you can pay, print and have your packages picked up for free. i can even drop off free boxes. i wear a lot of hats. well, technically i wear one. the u.s. postal service®,
chuck hagel is not that guy. >> hang on with me. we got much more to do. >>> four brave americans, here's where we're going. fouf four brave americans killed in benghazi. but incredibly, yesterday's senate intelligence committee hearings revealed for the first time that president obama as awol. hillary clinton also awol during that horrible benghazi night. and the secretary of defense, he apparently did nothing. his hands were tied. even the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff,...
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Feb 4, 2013
02/13
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and chuck hagel. and you can not compare the first two to chuck haguel. after i watched the hearing, i remembered the lyrics to a country song. you mean i shaved my legs for this? you mean we're having this huge fight over this guy who cannot even articulate our policy towards iran? >> robert? >> let's be clear. >> this performance was not good. >> two things. i want to go about something that ana just said. if you turned on cspan and hadn't watched tv in the intervening six years, you would think we had 150,000 troops parked right now in iraq. this next defense secretary is not going to deal with iraq and the surge. this was a vanity thing for john mccain to try to approprove to former friend who disagreed with him that he was right on the surge and that chuck hagel was wrong. >> what should hagel have said? what would you have told him to say? >> i think he said correctly, we're going to let history judge iraq, because frankly chuck hagel could have said, senator mccain, i think i might have been wrong on iraq. were you wrong on iraq? here's the questio
and chuck hagel. and you can not compare the first two to chuck haguel. after i watched the hearing, i remembered the lyrics to a country song. you mean i shaved my legs for this? you mean we're having this huge fight over this guy who cannot even articulate our policy towards iran? >> robert? >> let's be clear. >> this performance was not good. >> two things. i want to go about something that ana just said. if you turned on cspan and hadn't watched tv in the intervening...
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Feb 14, 2013
02/13
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mike emanuel on what is holding up chuck hagel. >> they successfully delayed chuck hagel's controversial nomination as secretary of defense. late today, procedural vote failed after senator john mccain had made the case for waiting until after next week's recess. >> i think that is a sufficient period of time to get answers to outstanding questions and i think that senator hagel after that period of time deserves a cloture vote and a up-or-down vote on his nomination. >> i have valued your thoughts and your contributions. i think most all of us in public office feel that way. >> among questions, speeches like to one in june 13, 2008, before the arab american antidiscrimination committee that hagel did not disclose to armed services committee. earlier they blasted republicans for holding up hagel's nomination to lead the pentagon. >> it's shocking that my republican colleagues would leave the nation would a fully empowered secretary of defense. during all the things we have going on in the world, including a war. >> but panetta isn't leaving yet. and 60-vote requirement is not unusual, sa
mike emanuel on what is holding up chuck hagel. >> they successfully delayed chuck hagel's controversial nomination as secretary of defense. late today, procedural vote failed after senator john mccain had made the case for waiting until after next week's recess. >> i think that is a sufficient period of time to get answers to outstanding questions and i think that senator hagel after that period of time deserves a cloture vote and a up-or-down vote on his nomination. >> i...
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Feb 14, 2013
02/13
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they're alleging that chuck hagel was involved. not only is that a stretch but chuck hagel oversee something like this. they dignified the response. after both lindsey graham and john mccain said they were largely satisfied according to the hill, but they still wanted to push the hagueel vote back. in reality it's not like they actually care about any of that. this is purely about political grandstanding. and speaking of that john boehner is using the senate to excuse his complete lack of action in the house. >> the president likes to attack congress but if he's serious about enacting his agenda, i think it must start with the part of this congress, the united states senate. why can't he get past in the united states senate? >> michael: that's a really good question mr. speaker. let's get to work, senate democrats. joining me now philip ewing. he comes to us from washington, d.c. philip, welcome inside "the war room"." >> thanks for having me. >> michael: let's just start at the basics about hagel. once the senate gets closure what
they're alleging that chuck hagel was involved. not only is that a stretch but chuck hagel oversee something like this. they dignified the response. after both lindsey graham and john mccain said they were largely satisfied according to the hill, but they still wanted to push the hagueel vote back. in reality it's not like they actually care about any of that. this is purely about political grandstanding. and speaking of that john boehner is using the senate to excuse his complete lack of...
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Feb 14, 2013
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a vote on chuck hagel is really going to be touch and go. they are watching this right along with everyone else. but administration officials really pressing the narrative that this comes as an incredibye difficult time. if he isn't confirmed this week and if it does not come to a full vote for another 12 days, that means hagel will not be able to travel to brussels for that nato summit. this is a critical time for the united states as it prepares to draw down troops from afghanistan. the president announcing during his state of the union address he will draw down 30,000 troops in the next year. they believe it's critical for chuck hagel to be there is he can help to talk to the allies about that transition process. some tense moments for the white house. again, they are calling this unconscionable, pointing to the fact this is first time this has really happened in u.s. history. earlier today the white house released that letter that came from kathy rumler, the legal counsel, giving some answers about what happened during the night of bengh
a vote on chuck hagel is really going to be touch and go. they are watching this right along with everyone else. but administration officials really pressing the narrative that this comes as an incredibye difficult time. if he isn't confirmed this week and if it does not come to a full vote for another 12 days, that means hagel will not be able to travel to brussels for that nato summit. this is a critical time for the united states as it prepares to draw down troops from afghanistan. the...
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Feb 14, 2013
02/13
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it may be valentine's day, but not a lot of love for chuck hagel. next week a nato meeting of defense ministers is scheduled in brussels. but given the way chuck hagel's nomination is going, it's possible the u.s. may not have a new defense secretary there or leon panetta may be forced to go there steed. yesterday, the senate began the odd procedural dance that is required for cloture, the process for ending senate debate. >> nomination, department of defense, charles timothy hagel of nebraska, to be secretary of defense. >> mr. president, i sent a cloture motion to the desk and ask the clerk to report. this is the first time in the history of our country that a presidential nominee for secretary of defense has been filibustered. what a shame. >> the requirement of 60 votes for a cabinet appointee is almost unprecedented. only two cabinet appointments have ever been filibustered, according to the senate historian's office. verity in 1978 and dirk kempthorne. no appointment has ever been successfully filibustered, by the way. yesterday, senator jim i
it may be valentine's day, but not a lot of love for chuck hagel. next week a nato meeting of defense ministers is scheduled in brussels. but given the way chuck hagel's nomination is going, it's possible the u.s. may not have a new defense secretary there or leon panetta may be forced to go there steed. yesterday, the senate began the odd procedural dance that is required for cloture, the process for ending senate debate. >> nomination, department of defense, charles timothy hagel of...
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>>> defense secretary leon panetta came out in support of chuck hagel. president obama's choice for defense secretary. >> what you've heard from republicans thus far has been, why -- where is the calvary in all of this, why didn't the military over the course of what we've been told was a seven-hour incident if you can call it an incident. why over the course of seven hours was there not a strike team of some sort that could be put into benghazi to try to help out. on the show today, i had not just leon panetta, but as well the chairman of the joint chiefs, martin dempsey, and i asked them that very question, like why wouldn't you on 9/11, have troops sort of ready? and dempsey said to me, we did, the minute we knew the incident happened, the secretary of defense said, move some troops, scramble some troops, get them ready, let us know what their transit time would be. that's where it ended. i said, why didn't you just move them at that moment when you knew there was trouble. here's what dempsey said. >> we can't be a replacement. it was 9/11 elsewhere i
>>> defense secretary leon panetta came out in support of chuck hagel. president obama's choice for defense secretary. >> what you've heard from republicans thus far has been, why -- where is the calvary in all of this, why didn't the military over the course of what we've been told was a seven-hour incident if you can call it an incident. why over the course of seven hours was there not a strike team of some sort that could be put into benghazi to try to help out. on the show...
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Feb 3, 2013
02/13
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chuck hagel did that as a sergeant in vietnam. if confirmed, chuck hagel will do it again. this time not before a platoon but before every man and woman and their families in the armed services, you will lead them, and they will know in their hearts, we have one of our own. you're on your own. good luck. \[laughter] >> well, we thank you both, senator warner, senator nunn, for your powerful introductions. i just wish every member of the senate, every american could have heard, and i hope will hear and read about what you said here today about chuck hagel. and i also notice there's another former senator who is a member of that band of brothers who is with us today. i just noticed in the audience max cleland is here and i want to welcome you, max, an old friend of the committee and of the senate and of the nation. so let me now call on senator hagel, and senator warner, senator nunn, again, thank you for your introductions and you are free to get back to your lives or to stay as you wish. >> thank you. >> senator hagel. >> thank you, chairman levin, ranking member inhofe and
chuck hagel did that as a sergeant in vietnam. if confirmed, chuck hagel will do it again. this time not before a platoon but before every man and woman and their families in the armed services, you will lead them, and they will know in their hearts, we have one of our own. you're on your own. good luck. \[laughter] >> well, we thank you both, senator warner, senator nunn, for your powerful introductions. i just wish every member of the senate, every american could have heard, and i hope...
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Feb 23, 2013
02/13
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blocking chuck hagel's nomination is that somebody who had seen chuck hagel give a speech six years ago had later written the blog post about the speech in which he did not quote chuck hagel, but he asserted that chuck hagel had said awful things in the speech. no quotations of anything chuck hagel said there are certainly no transcripts or recordings of anything he said there is no direct attribution of anything that chuck hagel said at all. but lindsey graham and kelly ayotte wrote to chuck hageling is asking him to explain whether that blogger was right. chuck hagel amazingly responded to that with words be. the nature of the demand was unusual, right? especially for two senators who like to maintain themselves as very serious people on the issue of foreign policy. well, that whole incident followed up the blowup around the friends of hamas thing. the friends of hamas thing i can do far less justice that than comedy central can. behold stephen colbert. >> according to conservative news anger gator breitbart.com, hagel may have taken money from an organization called friends of ha
blocking chuck hagel's nomination is that somebody who had seen chuck hagel give a speech six years ago had later written the blog post about the speech in which he did not quote chuck hagel, but he asserted that chuck hagel had said awful things in the speech. no quotations of anything chuck hagel said there are certainly no transcripts or recordings of anything he said there is no direct attribution of anything that chuck hagel said at all. but lindsey graham and kelly ayotte wrote to chuck...
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the white house is counting on it working in the case of chuck hagel. the white house has been calling out republicans on this filibuster and you just hadden john mcsay a few minutes ago that we're going to get to a 51-vote sequester. the white house has had success so far -- but the signs are positive that hagel ultimately will be concerned, the question is how long and is there any possibility that hagel in the meechbt decides to step out and take himself out of the consideration, at least that's not what the white house wants. >> big picture here, though, john, our first read team says this is a reminder for all future legislative fights and nomination battles. we'll see over the next four years, let's stop pretending this will change any time soon. meaning this particular strategy is something we will see perhaps in fights over universal's background checks for guns. even the prek for all children as all legislation as we move forward with this congress and this president as a dynamic could end up like we're seeing now. >> that's correct, tamron, bu
the white house is counting on it working in the case of chuck hagel. the white house has been calling out republicans on this filibuster and you just hadden john mcsay a few minutes ago that we're going to get to a 51-vote sequester. the white house has had success so far -- but the signs are positive that hagel ultimately will be concerned, the question is how long and is there any possibility that hagel in the meechbt decides to step out and take himself out of the consideration, at least...
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Feb 27, 2013
02/13
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. >> ifill: then, we get the latest on the senate vote to confirm former senator chuck hagel as the next secretary of defense. >> woodruff: ray suarez talks with marcia coyle about today's supreme court arguments over getting a d.n.a. sample from a suspect who was arrested but not convicted of a crime. >> ifill: special correspondent kira kay previews next week's presidential contest in kenya, where memories linger from the violence that followed the 2007 elections. >> we talk about people dead. i think if you count it over time and those who don't know it's probably around 2,000. massive, huge kills. we were on the brink of civil war. >> woodruff: and we close with a conversation with gloria steinem about the women's movement and the pbs documentary, "makers: women who make america." >> we have realized that a majority of americans fully agree that women can do what men can do but we haven't yet realizednhamet can do what women do. >> ifill: that's all ahead on tonight's newshour. >> major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by: moving our economy for 160 years. bnsf, the eng
. >> ifill: then, we get the latest on the senate vote to confirm former senator chuck hagel as the next secretary of defense. >> woodruff: ray suarez talks with marcia coyle about today's supreme court arguments over getting a d.n.a. sample from a suspect who was arrested but not convicted of a crime. >> ifill: special correspondent kira kay previews next week's presidential contest in kenya, where memories linger from the violence that followed the 2007 elections. >>...
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Feb 14, 2013
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primarily focusing on chuck hagel and the fact that will come to a vote tomorrow. he would be the first foot soldier, you know, in that position. a vietnam vet, has a great career as a republican from nebraska. what do you think is the main opposition to seeing him get into that seat? he said weak and wobbly performance at his hearing. >> i don't know what the opposition is quite frankly, thomas. maybe susan can help explain it. i think one of the reasonable republicans out there. he's a republican and he has been a republican who democrats have had uneasiness in the past. president obama's appointment and he should have an up or down vote. i think that harry reid should go back and reconsider the whole idea about the filibuster negotiation they had last month. but, i mean, they have asked for five years of financial records from chuck hagel, they were comfortable for one year of financial records from mitt romney and suddenly for a person with few responsibilities they want more records, completely inconsistent. >> as we see from plymoupolitic republicans see the
primarily focusing on chuck hagel and the fact that will come to a vote tomorrow. he would be the first foot soldier, you know, in that position. a vietnam vet, has a great career as a republican from nebraska. what do you think is the main opposition to seeing him get into that seat? he said weak and wobbly performance at his hearing. >> i don't know what the opposition is quite frankly, thomas. maybe susan can help explain it. i think one of the reasonable republicans out there. he's a...
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Feb 27, 2013
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, senate majority leader harry reid said, chuck hagel should have been confirmed before the president's day recess. at the time, the senate's 55 democrats could not get the 60 votes needed to end a republican filibuster against fellow republican hagel. democrat dick durbin of illinois condemned the g.o.p. opposition today. >> there's no question that there are some who bear some negative feelings torgd chuck hagel because of his independence and some of his votes in the past, even his support of president obama in the last presidential election. but this has been taken to a level that i never expected. >> woodruff: still mississippi's roger wicker and other republicans charged again that hagel is too willing to compromise with iran. and too willing to criticize israel. >> either we should disregard everything that the senator has said and stood for as merely hyperbole or this is a nominee with a very unsettling and naive world view. you can't have it both ways. >> woodruff: just five days ago 15 republican senators wrote to president obama asking him to withdraw the hagel nomination. bu
, senate majority leader harry reid said, chuck hagel should have been confirmed before the president's day recess. at the time, the senate's 55 democrats could not get the 60 votes needed to end a republican filibuster against fellow republican hagel. democrat dick durbin of illinois condemned the g.o.p. opposition today. >> there's no question that there are some who bear some negative feelings torgd chuck hagel because of his independence and some of his votes in the past, even his...
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Feb 15, 2013
02/13
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debris chuck hagel did a horrible job. i'm trying to figure out why these two men who praised him fairly recently in the cycle, why are they trashing him this hard? i think it's personal, in addition to his performance. >> all right, thank you so much for the interesting discussion this morning, our cnn cnn chief congressional for xondent dana bash, cnn contributor l.z. granderson and our boulevard republican strategist, thanks to all of you. >>> many passengers from the carnival "triumph" are already back in texas, arriving not by ship but by bus, after their nightmare cruise finally ends. [ woman ] ring. ring. progresso. your soups are so awesomely delicious my husband and i can't stop eating 'em! what's...that... on your head? can curlers! tomato basil, potato with bacon... we've got a lot of empty cans. [ male announcer ] progresso. you gotta taste this soup. we've got a lot of empty cans. chances are, you're not made of money, so don't overpay for motorcycle insurance. geico, see how much you could save. we were out w
debris chuck hagel did a horrible job. i'm trying to figure out why these two men who praised him fairly recently in the cycle, why are they trashing him this hard? i think it's personal, in addition to his performance. >> all right, thank you so much for the interesting discussion this morning, our cnn cnn chief congressional for xondent dana bash, cnn contributor l.z. granderson and our boulevard republican strategist, thanks to all of you. >>> many passengers from the carnival...
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Feb 14, 2013
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we're getting news chuck hagel missed by one. this is now looking dicey. . hi. hi. i'm here to pick up some cacti. it should be under stephens. the verizon share everything plan for small business. get a shareable pool of data... got enough joshua trees? ... on up to 25 devices. so you can spend less time... yea, the golden barrels... managing wireless costs and technology and more time driving your business potential.
we're getting news chuck hagel missed by one. this is now looking dicey. . hi. hi. i'm here to pick up some cacti. it should be under stephens. the verizon share everything plan for small business. get a shareable pool of data... got enough joshua trees? ... on up to 25 devices. so you can spend less time... yea, the golden barrels... managing wireless costs and technology and more time driving your business potential.
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Feb 1, 2013
02/13
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this is somebody passed over for the top spot for is chuck hagel. after watching the performance yesterday and the confirmation hearings of chuck hagel, it's clear that ash top cart her be the person who actually runs the pentagon. if hagel is in fact confirmed. >> bret: okay. big story not getting attention anyplace else but fox is american pastor in custody in iran. abatheny. his wife was on fox talking about how she wishes the u.s. government was talking more about this. >> it's unfortunate that we are hearing, we're not seeing more aggressive action from the government. i hope to see more of that. not just from the government but all over the world. this is a violation of the human rights. >> bret: he is american, in custody. in jail. in iran. steve obviously we had the 60 minutes interview with president obama and secretary clinton. that didn't come up. probably an opportunity. megaphone that he could have. >> among many other things that didn't come up. the government has to be clear-minded with this. declaring that this is unacceptable and ma
this is somebody passed over for the top spot for is chuck hagel. after watching the performance yesterday and the confirmation hearings of chuck hagel, it's clear that ash top cart her be the person who actually runs the pentagon. if hagel is in fact confirmed. >> bret: okay. big story not getting attention anyplace else but fox is american pastor in custody in iran. abatheny. his wife was on fox talking about how she wishes the u.s. government was talking more about this. >> it's...
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Feb 4, 2013
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what about chuck hagel? chuck, you had leon panetta on "meet the press" this weekend, and martin dempsey, the chairman of the joint chiefs. let me ask both of you what kind of power that chuck hagel would have, assuming he gets confirmed? how does he move into this period where he has to really fight for resources from congress and also deal within the cabinet, deal with the white house? snoo that seems to be the real question now. it's not if he is going to get confirmed. the political votes are there. another republican came on board over the weekend. roy blunt will vote no, but not filibuster. the votes are there to confirm him. that is not the question. the question is he going to have the political swagger, if you will, that secretary of defense immediate to both operate inside the pentagon, and that's -- you heard robert gibbs, former press secretary yesterday say it was a little disconcerting watching him give those answers. they made a strategic decision not to have a debate with those republican sen
what about chuck hagel? chuck, you had leon panetta on "meet the press" this weekend, and martin dempsey, the chairman of the joint chiefs. let me ask both of you what kind of power that chuck hagel would have, assuming he gets confirmed? how does he move into this period where he has to really fight for resources from congress and also deal within the cabinet, deal with the white house? snoo that seems to be the real question now. it's not if he is going to get confirmed. the...
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Feb 4, 2013
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>> if i were chuck hagel i'd go to the president and say do you still have confidence in me? do you think i could do the job. >> you would offer to potentially withdraw? >> you've got to if you think you're not going to be effective because of what's happened. >> the whole issue isn't getting confirmed. it's whether he'll have political capital as defense secretary to work with the congress and generals in a meaningful way. >>> coming up next, part of a one on one discussion i had with a man who has had just about every powerful position in washington other than the presidency, defense secretary leon panetta on his four decades in washington, the morality of drone strikes and advice he has for president obama. >>> plus the pack men, karl rove's new plan to pour cold water on the tea party and keep senate seats in the republican column. today's politics planner, as you can see, former president clinton will be speaking at ed koch's funeral, president obama is off to minneapolis and chris christie hits letterman. [ male announcer ] let's say you pay your guy around 2% to manage
>> if i were chuck hagel i'd go to the president and say do you still have confidence in me? do you think i could do the job. >> you would offer to potentially withdraw? >> you've got to if you think you're not going to be effective because of what's happened. >> the whole issue isn't getting confirmed. it's whether he'll have political capital as defense secretary to work with the congress and generals in a meaningful way. >>> coming up next, part of a one on...
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Feb 15, 2013
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it's just using chuck hagel as hostage for the lerchlg because wasn't even around during benghazi. >> it certainly seems -- andrea, i guess i'm skeptical of the idea that in the week's time they really need time to review what chuck hagel has said in the past, his speeches. he know chuck hagel has said controversial things about iran and we know he has said controversial things about homo sexuality that he has since apologized for. this delay seems to me maybe i'm being too cynical and political that that's kind of my thing, but this delay seems to be about the opponents of chuck hagel who do not think he is suited to be secretary of defense want one more week to see if there is anything that comes out that can be disqualifying for him. if there isn't -- if you are hagel, you never want to be twisting in the wind for another week while you kind of sit silently and europe independents do everything they can to kind of find something disqualifying? >> susan rice, the nominee that would have, could have, should have, some say, been secretary of state and lost because of benghazi in that
it's just using chuck hagel as hostage for the lerchlg because wasn't even around during benghazi. >> it certainly seems -- andrea, i guess i'm skeptical of the idea that in the week's time they really need time to review what chuck hagel has said in the past, his speeches. he know chuck hagel has said controversial things about iran and we know he has said controversial things about homo sexuality that he has since apologized for. this delay seems to me maybe i'm being too cynical and...
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Feb 14, 2013
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we're getting news chuck hagel missed by one. this is now looking dicey. . hi. hi. i'm here to pick up some cacti. it should be under stephens. the verizon share everything plan for small business. get a shareable pool of data... got enough joshua trees? ... on up to 25 devices. so you can spend less time... yea, the golden barrels... managing wireless costs and technology and more time driving your business potential. looks like we're going to need to order more agaves... ah! oh! ow! ... and...